Scrutiny hearing – transcript of key exchanges

Thursday 07 April 2016

Yesterday’s hearing ran for just over 90 minutes, with members of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel firing questions at Education Minister Rod Bryans, Education Department Chief Officer Justin Donovan and Education Policy and Planning Director Keith Posner.

The panel, chaired by Deputy Louise Doublet, includes Deputies Tracey Vallois, Jeremy Maçon and Sam Mézec.

Here are some of the key exchanges:

Jeremy Maçon – “What does the minister want to achieve by these changes?”

Rod Bryans – “I think all States Members will be aware of the situation that we find ourselves in with the structural deficit. This was the last and probably the most emotional – and I understand and sympathise quite deeply with the people who are in here and with the public in general. We had unsustainable nursery funding which needed to be addressed.”

Tracey Vallois – “Where is the money going?”

Rod Bryans – “Children with special educational needs will be receiving a very similar amount of money. We have been looking at this for a year. We looked first of all at various different ways of looking at it, from just offering 15 hours or removing it altogether. But it was felt having gone through this process that this was the best and least obstructive way for people.”

Sam Mézec – “You are looking at lots of other potential savings. This is one that comes out on its own. Is it part of a bigger package and what other savings are you looking at making? Can we expect more unpleasant surprises?”

Justin Donovan – “We are short of our £8 million. The target that we are set is £8 million. We are still short of around about £1 million. For example, we have reduced our management costs across the system so we have taken out very senior posts, deleted them and not replaced them. We have reduced management systems at Highlands College and taken half a million pounds off of that. We have still got between now and spring to come up with another £1 million worth of savings.”

Keith Posner – “We have 70 to 80 children currently in private nurseries, they are not currently part of the NEF scheme. There is no reason why they cannot apply. If they did, that would increase our costs considerably, from £350,000 to £300,000. These are families that are not part of the scheme at the moment. The vast majority – in fact all of these – are above the threshold because these are parents with children at the private schools.”

Louise Doublet – “Do you consider £75,000 as a joint income for a family to be a high income?”

Rod Bryans – “In this context, yes.”

Keith Posner – “What we did was look at household income. And we looked at households with a child under the age of five. The mid-point would be about £52,900. I think that it’s confusing when you add two average incomes and compare it to a household income. It’s considerably more.”

Louise Doublet – “I am not really feeling that these are the right calculations. Have you considered what a family earning £75,000 can actually afford to pay for nursery? Can they actually afford this?”

Rod Bryans – “There was a lot of discussion about that, particularly at the Council of Ministers. The problem with any of these figures is that there is a point where there is a cut-off point, it doesn’t matter what level you go to. For us, it was the balance of what we could achieve.”

Justin Donovan - “We have said that we have six months to look through the details.”

Rod Bryans – “The important thing for us is to get a situation where we have got this information out into the public domain as soon as possible once the decision has been signed off by the Council of Ministers. So there is 18 months to go and six months to keep reviewing this to see what we can do.”

Justin Donovan – “Our plan is to look at the detail over the next six months.”

Sam Mézec – “Do you accept that this change has the potential that some parents will give up their careers?”

Rod Bryans – “There are going to be some circumstances where that is possible.”

Sam Mézec – “Were there any discussions on gender equality, and the impact on women and their careers?”

Rod Bryans – “No.”

Sam Mézec – “Why isn’t there going to be a full debate in the States Chamber?”

Rod Bryans – “I don’t think that’s necessary.”

Sam Mézec – “In terms of the public feeling that this has inspired, would you be prepared to bring it to the States for a vote?”

Rod Bryans – “I don’t think that’s appropriate.”

Louise Doublet – “Every single decision about the Nursery Education Fund has come to the States for a decision. Every single decision. How can you justify taking it away from the States Assembly?”

Rod Bryans – “We sat down and discussed it and we felt the best thing was to talk to the private sector providers and bring it to the public.”

Jeremy Macon – “What consultation happened with the public sector?”

Justin Donovan – “We decided not to consult. We had to balance our books and prioritise our most vulnerable children. I make no excuses for that, that’s something that I will continue to do. It would have been disingenuous to launch a consultation on an area we had to press on with. We made sure that we had informed the private sector providers first. I do not think you should launch a consultation on something you really need to get on and do.”

Jeremy Maçon – “Their businesses might fold, and that might reduce choice.”

Justin Donovan – “We had a very frank and helpful evening. We will work with the commercial sector if they want to do that. We cannot change policy around a States department based on commercial interests in the private sector.”

Louise Doublet – “How can you justify completely abandoning the Nursery Education Fund?”

Rod Bryans – “I do not feel that we have abandoned it. We are in a situation where we have tried to make these savings.”

Justin Donovan – “We will still be spending £1.3 million on the programme.”

Keith Posner – “We will be reviewing nursery provision over the next six months.”

Justin Donovan – “That is long overdue.”

Louise Doublet – “Are you prepared to withdraw this proposal?”

Rod Bryans – “Not at this point in time.”